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Post to another forum...Right to healthcare debate - Piparskeggrsbok

Jun. 27th, 2009

03:46 pm - Post to another forum...Right to healthcare debate

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Good afternoon;

Bear with me, please, I tend to long answers in this sort of discussion.

My understanding is that a Right preexists any government, as a gift of Nature's God under Nature's Laws; our Constitution acknowledges this part of our human condition, it does not grant these Rights.

From your words, which seem thoughtful to me, I believe you are familiar with this point of view. I am stating this position for our mutual audience.

However, the acknowledgment of the universality of Rights, and protection thereof by those we put in authority over us as citizens, has evolved over time, especially for those amongst us who have a "lesser voice" (so to speak). Also, the idea of who is a Citizen has broadened over man's development; ancient Rome's concept thereof and the changes therein are a good case to study, especially as it developed from kingdom to republic to principiate.

The idea of Human Rights being a separate category from Civil Rights is also a fairly recent philosophical development in the history of mankind in my view. For me, Rights are Rights; what come into play in the Civic arena are virtues, morals and ethics.

The ethics of my worldview are fairly simple. I strive to do that which is right for family, friends and community, with wisdom, generosity and personal honor. Admittedly, helping strangers outside of my community does not enter into this, as to do so would slight my ability to help those to whom I am most fully obligated. And yes, my military service would be an aberration under this ethos as it involves helping (in a way) millions of strangers.

Government will restrict our liberty, sometimes for good reason, to exercise our rights as freeborn men and women. These areas, which are licensed or regulated, then become privileges.

Constitutions and laws are set up by us (or our trusted representatives) as a communal set of strictures upon government, and upon ourselves.

Governments are also instituted to do things that smaller subdivisions of society cannot do for themselves.

My hometown could not have pulled off a project in the scale of Boulder dam; a much larger pool of resources is needed.

I am well aware of poor houses, my father's uncle Jack died in one back in the 1930's, along with his wife. It was a time when the family was unable to afford to help them. It was a hard time for everyone. But, it was still the family's responsibility to try and help them, something in which we did fail. The poorhouse was supposed to be a drastic measure of last resort supplied by the community at large (or, in this case, by the Church), which it was.

Much of my suspicion of government claiming that they are here to help is colored by a few pieces of family history: I had ancestors on Daniel Shays side of that fracas, ancestors coming to America due to help by the British during the Potato Famine years, my maternal grandfather having witnessed Fascism in Italy and my mother-in-law's family having seen Communism, both in Russia and in Greece.

I am at heart, an Anglo-Saxon freeholder, who looks upon family and community as the largest, workable, social units. Larger entities are needy, and get greedy; for money, power...look at how the Church and State grew bloated with both over the history of Europe.

I also grew up under the New England Town Meeting form of local government, a very democratic form of republicanism. =)

Any bureaucracy, no matter how benign in original intent, will tend towards consolidating its control over its sector of policy and polity; mission creep also tends to move in...justifying the bureau's existence by claiming more and more areas of responsibility, building new agencies where none need to exist at a federal level, keeping their "clients" in a sort of bondage to the conditions that bring them to the "helpers" in the first place.

Health care reform is needed, but I think any fixes need to come from the bottom up, not the top down.

Be well - Pip

Comments:

[User Picture]
From:mdehners
Date:June 29th, 2009 11:29 am (UTC)
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Problems is that at the bottom you're too busy Surviving to be building anything that isn't for Immeditate Releif. We're also no longer a unified culture and the idea of helping your fellows is long Past.
In all Honoesty, I Trust my gov't(federal, not local) more than my fellow man. After a life of working in Burn Units and Hospices I get "I hope he dies before his SSDI comes in" from good local citizens because I'm not the local prefered religion, race and orientation. The "Gummit" has done more for me than all those fukkn cits whose fathers, mothers and other "loved ones" I took care of until Cheezits came to finish eating their Souls.
Sure, it's my fault. I bought all that crap about helping your fellow Americans Camelot crap instead of going for a good-paying full bennies job. I hear thant alot if I DARE complain that one of my Life-sustaining meds has been held up due to one of those bottom folks you praise. 'Course, killing me and other folks like me will save money.....
Truth,
Pat
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[User Picture]
From:ullarsskald1957
Date:June 29th, 2009 10:51 pm (UTC)

Re: Post to another forum...Right to healthcare debate

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Heya Pat;

Truth is what I have come to know from you.

It looks like our experiences and results from dealing with people and the government have been markedly different.

Or, perhaps, some similarity...my wife, is a disabled vet. The VA medical system does, after several years of fighting with them, take good care of her service connected conditions. So yes, I do depend upon the Federal Government for a segment of care to my family.

The Feds should be involved...protecting equal access; a citizen is a citizen is a citizen. The Fed should be our big gun for making sure all men and women, born in or naturalized to, this country are treated fairly and impartially, regardless of human condition.

The Fed should be a bulwark against the vagaries of treatment based upon "...they's differnt n me." No one should be abused, untreated or otherwise harmed just because they are different.

Only exceptions I have are proven murderers or rapists (of adult or child).
These folks should be stabbed a few inches below the navel with a rusty spike, which has been dipped in horse manure, and then allowed to die from untreated peritonitis.

I do still think, however, that local control and care is best.

My opinion.

be well, my regards to Chuck - Pip
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[User Picture]
From:mdehners
Date:June 30th, 2009 11:28 am (UTC)

Re: Post to another forum...Right to healthcare debate

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Well, you live in a Civilized part of the US, not here in "The Dangly Bits below the Bible Belt". You're also a clean-cut Married Het, even though you're a Satanist(anyone not Protestant IS considered here and even some of those are Suspect...). If you're not all of the above, the Locals aren't going to be that Interested in your "Problems". The only local support systems other than the gov't are religious and they ARE. They have no problem telling a "Sinner" whats-what, even those that get gov't moneys.
Our last(and I mean that. I'd rather be Homeless or Die than deal with these folks again...)experience with local "assistance" was due to Chuck being between jobs and all we needed was a SINGLE rent assist.Now, this is a local agency that normally gets folks into public housing(run by the local Assemblies of God and Babtist churches, BTW and requiring Morality Oaths be signed as a renter...). They made us go through Hell because we weren't willing to just go away(since I knew they HAD to because of their taking Fed monies). They finally gave us half,pointing out that if one of us had been a woman we would have gotten the whole amt....
Truth,
Pat
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[User Picture]
From:ullarsskald1957
Date:June 30th, 2009 10:08 pm (UTC)

Re: Post to another forum...Right to healthcare debate

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Pat;

I am almost speechless, save to say, I have seen the "Christian" charity you found there in action...part of the reason both Anita and I gave up on the "Church" long and long ago.

I hope things are on a more even keel for you now.

Gods' Blessing - Pip

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